Global Fiduciary Leaders with Professor Takatoshi Ito

Takatoshi Ito is the Director of the Program on Public Pension and Sovereign Funds at the Center on Japanese economy and business of Columbia Business School. He is also professor at the School of International and Public Affairs at Columbia University. He has taught extensively both in the United States and Japan.

Since finishing his PhD in economics at Harvard University in 1979, he taught as assistant and tenured associate professor at the University of Minnesota as associate and full professor at HETO Seia University. As professor at the Graduate School of Economics at University of Tokyo before assuming his current position in 2015, he held visiting professor positions at Harvard University, Stanford University, Columbia Business School, and the National Graduate Institute for Policy Studies and the Tun Ismail Ali Chair Professor at the University of Malaya.

He has distinguished academic and research appointments, such as the President of the Japanese Economic Association in 2004, Fellow of the Econometric Society since 1992, Research Associate at the National Bureau of Economic Research since 1985, and Faculty Fellow at the Center for Economic Policy Research since 2006.

He was editor in chief of the Journal of the Japanese and International Economies, and is co editor of the Asian Economic Policy Review. In an unusual move for a Japanese academic, Ito was also appointed to positions in the official sector as senior advisor in the research department. At the international monetary fund and as deputy vice minister for international affairs at the ministry of finance, Japan, he served as a member of the prime minister's council on economic and fiscal policy from 2006 through 2008.

Importantly, in 2013, Ito chaired a committee to reform the asset management benchmark of government pension. Investment fund with a total asset value of 250 trillion yen, approximately 1. 7 trillion dollars. U. S. In 2021, ito chaired a committee to make asset management guidelines for a newly created national university fund with total asset values of 70 billion dollars USD.

Or 10 trillion yen. He is the author of many books, including the Japanese economy, the political economy of the Japanese monetary policy and financial policy in central banking in Japan, managing currency risk, how Japanese firms choose invoicing currency and ESG investing with Keiko Honda. His research interests include capital flows and currency crisises, microstructures of the foreign exchange rates and inflation targeting.

He was awarded the national medal with purple ribbon in June 2011 for his excellent academic achievement. It's my great pleasure to introduce Hakutoshi Ito.

Ito sensei, ohayou gozaimasu.

[00:03:37] Professor Ito: Hi, how are you?

[00:03:39] Chris Battaglia: I'm good, thank you. How are you?

[00:03:41] Professor Ito: Good, good.

[00:03:42] Chris Battaglia: thank you for joining us. First and foremost, you're a very prestigious keynote speaker, opening keynote speaker at our global fiduciary symposium in Japan, which, I believe is a first for you, right?

You haven't in the 18 years that we've been, producing the symposium. I don't believe that you've ever been a keynote speaker or have attended the symposium. Is that right? That's right.

[00:04:05] Professor Ito: Correct.

[00:04:05] Chris Battaglia: Yeah,

[00:04:06] Professor Ito: this is my first time. I'm quite looking forward to.

[00:04:10] Chris Battaglia: we're very grateful. And the audience in Japan, we all know already, whenever we mentioned your name, they, your, your name is held an incredible respect and reverence.

So I think that people automatically recognize you. But for the purposes for advisorpedia, which has over 400, 000 U. S. financial advisors and 200, 000 subscribers to the newsletter, I thought it would be interesting for you to spend a little bit of time talking about Japan in a general sense, if you can put this in your mind about, you know, What the U.

S. doesn't know about Japan and the connection with Japanese financial markets and what we need to sort of consider. In other words, we remember a few weeks ago for example, that we had the big unwinding of the end dollar carry trade alongside of the anticipation of the U. S. Fed policy. But in my mind there was very little discussion about the yen dollar trade unwinding and very much a lot of focus on U.

S. inflation and monetary policy. So I just wonder if there's something that, that you could say about that in a general way that can help our audience understand the interconnectivity between the U. S. and Japanese markets.

[00:05:32] Professor Ito: Okay. So let me start with the current situation on the monetary policy in Japan, monetary policy in the U.

S. and the exchange rate. since last year, we knew that U. S. Federal Reserve will Lower the next step would be the lowering the interest rate, the policy rate rather than the hiking more. And the question is has been when, and on the other hand in Japan there was more call for, so-called normalization of the Japanese monetary policy , which is increasing the, interest rate from negative 0. 1 percent toward normal range of the policy rate. So, in Japan, the rate was expected to go higher. Question was when. And in the U. S. the direction was the policy rate will be lower and question was when. And the consequence would be that the Yen will appreciate when one, Of the two monetary policy changes or both.

but in the meantime that the exchange rate was moving toward the Yen depreciation and even within since the start of this year, that again depreciated. And, it went to 161 yen per dollar, and that was a bit too much for the Japanese consumers and SMEs which import the materials to process.

And so even the politicians started to say yen was too depreciated and the Minister of Finance who's in charge of the currency policy intervened in the April 29 and following days. to stop the yen depreciation and it had some effects, but didn't last long. So the Minister of Finance again intervened in July.

So 160 was probably red line. Then what happened was that well, the Bank of Japan ended the negative interest policy YCC and much of the QQE policy. Framework in March this year. And they indicated that the interest rate will go to a policy rate will be hiked again.

 if the data on track but market didn't price in those consecutive interest rate. Hikes. So when the BOJ. Increased the interest rate policy rate again at the end of July. At the same time, the BOJ started the quantitative tightening QT. The market reacted a little bit more than before, and yen started to appreciate, and the stock market declined in, Japan.

But that was followed by the surprisingly weak job data employment data in, in the U. S. on, on the Friday. And that actually triggered a very violent reaction in the currency market, the dollar yen. market and the stock prices in both the U. S. and Japan. So I'd say it was much more the employment data which caused the reactions in the currency market and to stock markets than the BOJ policy change.

But, you know, those combined effects, we saw Very violent reactions in dollar yen and the stock prices since then I think the stock prices recovered fairly quickly but the exchange rate stayed around the mid. 140s. So somewhere between 143 and 146. And so that's, where we are.

But, you know, the Bank of Japan has indicated and, and will do the more Interest rate hike and it is widely expected for the reserve will cut the policy rate in September. So I think there's similar. The trend of the yen appreciation will continue and how quickly, how violently.

We don't know. It depends on the, how much it is priced in, when the policy change occurs, and the market conditions in general. Or when the policy is changed, but the, I have to say the trend we're going to see is the gradual yen appreciation and somewhat subdued stock prices, stock markets in both countries.

Sorry, it's a long answer to your short question.

[00:10:50] Chris Battaglia: No, it's a very thorough answer to a very important question. So thank you for that level of detail. I think we're just about at 145 yen to the dollar today. If I'm hearing you correctly, you expect the yen will continue to gradually appreciate over the next couple of months.

Is that right? So do you have a prediction? Is it 120? what do you think the yen will stabilize at?

[00:11:13] Professor Ito: it's always dangerous to predict the exchange rates but I think the majority of the forecasters are saying that 1. 30, 1. 35 would be achievable and Some predict 120, but the I think that's a little bit too much unless the P.

O. J. surprises the market.

[00:11:39] Chris Battaglia: Thank you very much for your thoughts on that. I think that the audience at both advisor Pedia and the global fiduciary symposium in Japan will really appreciate that. That context and background. If we could switch a little bit, to Japan directly now. Many now have an understanding of what's coming from the Japanese government, something called Asset Management Nation and their Emerging Manager Program.

And Asset Management Nation, even though it's a domestic policy for Japan, really seems like it will have some implications for global asset management companies as well, as, as Japan continues to. Work to attract global managers and to support the growth of the asset management business in Japan. So if we can shift to that and can you give us some context on why now this is an important initiative and also the context of Japanese society.

As we see now a gradual interest in shift from society of savers to investors and last but not least, the role of inflation as it relates to the asset management nation now, and, of course, you have very broad and deep context as someone who is advised a lot on asset allocation. So I was wondering if you could comment a little bit on asset management nation and what that means to Japan.

But also, what does it mean to the U. S. And the rest of the world?

[00:13:10] Professor Ito: So under the banner of asset management nation, there are several elements. And one is, as you mentioned, to change the behavior of the Japanese households asset management and as well known, the Japanese households love the bank deposits and roughly half of the household's assets are in bank deposits and of course in the, last 25 years of deflation until 2012.

Bank deposits was zero interest rate, was a perfectly fine investment. Real value increased. so there was nothing wrong with that. But now the, we are we means Japanese households are living in a more normal. Economic conditions with 2 percent inflation and interest rate rising and the yield curve shifting up.

And this will continue and I would say that bank deposit interest rate will not go up as much as the market rate. or the yield or the returns of the market instruments and equities. So now is the time, perfect time to encourage. Educate Japanese households to move out of bank deposits and go into higher yield securities and especially equities and also look for the global Opportunities.

so this asset management nation is to help the Japanese households to get benefits of going diversified. Global portfolio. So this is the first foremost objective of the asset management nation. Second is to make Japan.

And I would think Tokyo, but some people think otherwise as the international financial center or international financial hub, at least in Asia, and especially asset management was a weak spot for the Japanese financial central hub and Japan would like to invite foreign asset managers and have them interest in Japanese assets public equities and private equities and, more.

So this is more to invite foreigners. And also encourage Japanese asset managers to reside in Japan and make investment in Japanese assets. the first objective I've mentioned, make Japanese households assets more global and diversified. The money could could flow out from Japan, and this happened under the so called the new NISA program.

but second objective is that specifically invite foreign asset managers and foreign assets into Japan and make Japanese financial and capital markets more profitable. More vibrant and growth. Oriented and Japanese FSA, the financial services agency and the Tokyo Stock Exchange have tried to make Japanese corporations to pursue higher ROI and have higher corporate governance standard.

And I think this encouragement or the forcing of the Japanese corporation to change have now bearing fruits and many foreign asset managers interested in. Japanese public and private equities. And this is very good thing for both the foreign asset managers and the Japanese corporations and financial markets in general.

So those are the two major objectives of the asset management nations. program or the objective.

[00:17:37] Chris Battaglia: Yeah, that's very helpful. I, you know, I also wonder hearing you talk about the growth of Japanese equities. Most people may be not aware that the Japanese index of equities was among, if not the best performing equities market in the world last year.

And even though it hit a little blip with the U S markets and global markets in July, It's still performing very, very, very strongly. How much of that has to do with the reforms, the corporate stewardship codes, the other types of policy changes that Japan has made that has improved the R. O. E. for companies and also do you anticipate Japan will also increase the rate of of growth within their venture capital and startup communities as, as we see some changes to how companies operate.

[00:18:26] Professor Ito: Right. So the um, first question, why Japanese equities are doing so well? Well, first as you indicated it is due to the cumulative efforts of making Japanese corporations to behave in a more like Western companies and put more emphasis on the shareholders.

And, as you mentioned, the stewardship code and corporate governance code and Tokyo Stock Exchange reform of the listing standards. I think they all contributed to the higher Performance of the Japanese corporations and stock prices reflect those higher performances of the Japanese corporations.

One additional fact which may dissipate later is that yen depreciation actually helped. Japanese corporations performances especially financial performances on the evaluation of the foreign assets that they have built up in the last three decades. it's, combination of the structural reforms and macro environments.

[00:19:44] Chris Battaglia: Excellent. Thank you. You know, speaking about reforms there, Japan has done a lot in the last 12 to 24 months, just recently, as well as the last decade with some of these reforms that we're speaking about, we mentioned asset management nation, but we, we didn't get to thoroughly touch on the EMP, the emerging manager program.

You also have extensive experience in advising the government and have been a foremost academic scholar on the pension issues in Japan and globally and what is the implication of widening the appeal for the allocators or the pension funds themselves and endowments and foundations in Japan to a wider set of of managers through the emerging manager program.

What is your view on, how that will change and, shape the future for both beneficiaries in Japan under these plans and the retirement business and asset management business itself?

[00:20:46] Professor Ito: So, I think it's a general understanding that in Japan, we do not have enough number of asset managers who think independently and with more insights.

into the market. we call the asset managers in, the Japanese financial institutions the salaryman asset managers.

[00:21:10] Chris Battaglia: Right.

[00:21:11] Professor Ito: They just promoted into the asset management and promoted out to other. Businesses and it's a regular job rotation within the company, and they're not expected to make a huge bets and long term bets.

On the growth opportunities, they want to minimize the loss, minimize the risk. And that is not good asset management. So we need more independent. Asset managers and asset management companies, maybe startups. And to do that, we need more independent asset manager or dedicated asset managers, but to have the asset management to get the asset management opportunities, those asset managers have to have experiences.

But you don't get the experiences unless you have the jobs. So it's a catch 22, and this is a well known universal problem. And so one way is to build up the experience. In large institutions and spin out and become independent. But still you, you need to show the past five year returns to get the management mandate from large asset owners and there we, we need some program that startups, even the startups can win the mandate and start managing some funds and build up experience.

I think that's the emerging managers. Program and I think the Japanese, is modeling the EMP after the foreign countries experiences. And I, I think the, you know, it's I'd say belatedly, I think Japanese are moving toward nurturing.

Those asset managers and I think it takes time but I think you have to start somewhere. And this is a opportunity that they try to get.

[00:23:21] Chris Battaglia: But when you say it takes time. That takes on a different context when you talk about Japan compared to the rest of the world in terms of how they think about a timeline.

But if I think about your comments about performance and track record, aside from the spin outs, possibly from well established firms, does it also mean that the allocation of Community in Japan, the traditional corporate public pension funds, the G. P. I. F. For example, we'll have a different view in terms of how they allocate.

In other words, will it be more important to look at talent and culture as opposed to track record or in lieu of track record? Will the mindset change a little bit about possibly taking more risk in lieu of a track record. Or, or does it mean that over time? The track record and performance still will be you know, very important.

[00:24:15] Professor Ito: I would say both that you know, GPI is a huge. Fund and they can allocate to more traditional passive type asset managers but also they can, , experiment, I shouldn't use the word experiment, but, you do some new program to hire boutique active asset managers.

I believe they are doing both. And for the latter category, I think they're looking for the good startups but, you know, you, you cannot probably go to the zero experience just for asset managers. So, we need some program to nurture those startups.

[00:24:59] Chris Battaglia: I want to move on in a minute to the future systems of Japan, the defined contribution programs and your thoughts on that.

But before we do, can you elaborate a little bit on your thoughts generally speaking, Where the allocations will bucket, whether it's public and private markets, both, or do you see one or the other taking more of a role in the growth of Japan's asset management nation and what's happening with the emerging manager program, or will they grow side by side?

[00:25:29] Professor Ito: So since the GPIF made large change in their portfolio allocations back in 2013, they have targeted 5 percent of their assets into alternatives. But their allocation, after 10 years of the reform the allocation to alternatives still below 2%.

[00:25:54] Chris Battaglia: Below

2%. And just for the benefit of the audience, the the GPIF is the largest pension fund in the world at about 250 trillion yen, which is about 1. 7 trillion U. S. dollars. So a massive amount of capital.

[00:26:09] Professor Ito: Yeah thank, thank you, Chris, for the exact numbers. Yes. And so it, I see it is a struggle for the Japanese pension funds to raise the ratio of alternatives.

I have asked. questions to those people who actually do manage the assets and they say it's very difficult to find the good opportunities for alternatives and gate keepers and, so on. So I understand that it takes time again to build up the good portfolio of alternatives.

but it is recognized among the pension fund community in Japan that to raise the ratio of alternatives. like Canadian pension funds would be a key to maintain the high returns in the long run because it's illiquid assets and the pension funds are natural.

 asset owners who would be interested in, in alternatives. And so we need more structure, transparency, and other ways to invest in the alternatives in Japan and, also in the global markets. So, yes, the asset owners in Japan are very much interested in alternatives.

And we have to think how to promote the alternative in Japan and also Japanese to be interested in the foreign alternatives.

[00:27:44] Chris Battaglia: I wish we had more time to have just a separate podcast just on that topic because there's a lot to unpack. But I do want to move on to what I would describe as the future of Japan's capital markets as it relates to The defined contribution systems and you've previously spoken about the need for Japan's companies to smoothly transition from legacy DB or pay as you go systems to DC systems.

And could you share your views on how Japan's transition to define contribution will differ from the US, Europe and Australia, for example, and what common elements will Japan have with these countries, if any?

[00:28:25] Professor Ito: So first. the current DC system in Japan has roughly two categories. One is so called company type, which is like 401k.

In the us And another is individual type, which is called ICO in Japan. which is like IRA or other types for the self-employed in Japan. The biggest differences between US type and Japanese type of this DC is a limit that you can contribute. And which is

[00:29:01] Chris Battaglia: quite limited

right now, right?

[00:29:04] Professor Ito: Quite limited, quite low for Japanese. just casually looking around my side, I've, you know friends professor and business people in us and also professors and, business people in Japan, and we talk about it. And I think the DC has large. Assets by the time of retirement in the U.

S. and professors, all the professors in the U. S. have you know, TIA CREF, and if you contributed max into those TIA CREF in your salary for 40 years. You have a substantial D. C. asset at the time of retirement, and I've seen, you know, my friends in New York who get benefit from this TIACREF and other D.

C. system.

[00:29:56] Chris Battaglia: The so called 401k millionaires in the United States is what you're referring to. Yeah.

[00:30:01] Professor Ito: Not billionaire, but millionaire. Millionaire.

[00:30:03] Chris Battaglia: Right.

[00:30:04] Professor Ito: Possible. In Japan, there's none of that. And you know, my friends, professor friends in Japan do not have this, huge DC assets at the time of retirement they can do their own stock investment or the real estate investment privately, but there is no tax benefit.

. And it depends on, many factors, but, there is no D. C. millionaire in Japan. So for younger generation, I think we should give opportunities to build up assets in D. C. And that will ease or mitigate. The anxiety of the young people that DB will not be there when they retire and I think it's the obligation of our generations to help change the system in Japan toward DC, you know, 1st step, easy step is just, you know, increase

[00:31:09] Chris Battaglia: the contribution Levels. Yeah.

[00:31:11] Professor Ito: Contribution limit

[00:31:12] Chris Battaglia: we touched on this, issue of education a few times as it relates to the transition from savers to investors in Japan based on your deep knowledge of Japan's demographics being Japanese yourself. How must we consider the role of financial literacy and education as it relates to Japan's growing D.

C. structures? We know, for example, from the U. S., that trying to make D. C. participants or individual investors educated on complicated investment topics doesn't work. But rather, we've shifted and now we created products that automatically assist them with asset allocation shifts over time, like target date funds and custom target date funds.

But yet the overall level of financial literacy in Japan, compared to the United States, the UK, France, Germany, Canada, Australia that have large DC systems is lower. So what should be the role of companies governments and other providers in Japan in helping the Japanese population increase their overall financial literacy levels?

[00:32:18] Professor Ito: As you mentioned, it's often said that Japanese financial literacy is low because evidence is that half of the assets are in bank deposits, but if you do not offer the opportunities is. Like 401k and either go there's no returns to the financial literacy education. So

[00:32:44] Chris Battaglia: there's no motivation to be educated,

right?

[00:32:48] Professor Ito: Right. So it has to go hand in hand that expanding the opportunities for DC or other tax incentivized investment like new NISA and the more education for the benefit of, I would say, long term investment. And once opportunities are there, I think the Japanese are eager to learn.

And there are plenty of companies who are willing to educate the Japanese people. But I would like to emphasize, I think it's mostly important for the young generation. And I worry. Very little about wealthy, retired people worrying about the how to allocate the assets.

so we need to change the system, more toward the DC for the young people that is my push.

[00:33:47] Chris Battaglia: I appreciate your thoughts there. I, although I'm not a professor and certainly not a professor in the economic world, I can't help but think that there is a deep connection between the future economic growth of Japan and the potential for increasing the birth rate.

Which is a known issue in Japan, right? The negative birth rate coupled with low immigration is something that is an impediment to the growth of the Japanese economy. And I'm going to ask you this question that I know may be hesitant to answer, but can those two things be directly connected if the opportunity is there for higher returns, higher risk, which will increase financial literacy and education?

Is it possible the younger generation will feel better about the future of the family and they will naturally increase the birth rate without any kind of incentives from government?

[00:34:37] Professor Ito: I think there is a connection. I think there is a positive connection between the two you mentioned, but I think the connection is not that strong.

If the government is interested in raising the fertility rate, I think there are other things Policies needed than asset management to raise the fertility rate. I would not sell the asset management and expansion DC as a means to raise the fertility rate.

[00:35:10] Chris Battaglia: Interesting. You are a well known author as well as, being obviously, as most academics are, but you recently co authored a book on, elements of sustainability with a colleague of Keiko Honda of Columbia University.

What are your views on the role specifically of impact investing in Japan, and will that replace the lexicon of ESG going forward where investors will be looking for a defined outcome of placing their capital in a place to affect a positive result for society?

[00:35:44] Professor Ito: Okay, so Keiko Honda and I co authored a book, but I cannot speak for her because we may have slightly different ideas about ESG and going forward.

But what we agreed When we started writing the book on ESG, that we defined ESG investment as investment which take the factors of ESG into evaluating the companies and so on in order to raise the returns to the investment. So we did not want to include. Those investment which sacrifices returns.

For this social good. Or other objectives as ESG investing. So this is the line that probably some people do not agree. But we specifically mentioned ESG investing as a means to increase the returns. I know there are products and, asset managers who would like to promote.

the financial products, which have social good reducing this CO2 emissions or some other ways as the major benefits of purchasing the financial assets. But that is not our definition of ESG. And so impact investing, I think, put more emphasis on how to change the world, how to change the corporation's behavior and how to change.

Eventually the world and That is fine if you agree with the objective and if you're. Willing to sacrifice. The returns for the social good. That is fine. And that's the asset owners preference. my strong view is that it has to be transparent in the prospectus of the ESG financial products that whether the returns are expected to be higher, comparable or lower than non ESG investing. So then you can let the asset owners to choose those financial investment, but I would be very worried is probably the best word that whether to sacrifice or not, the returns is not often mentioned.

So they say, you know, you get returns as well as social impact, but returns, whether that's lower or higher than the other asset management products. So I I'd like to see the transparency. I'd like to see the examinations afterwards, the track records and let the, asset owners choose.

That's 1st point. 2nd point is that ESG. I wrote in the book. I do not like the mix of these 3 things. Environment is according to our economists definition, it is global. Public goods. So any individual action would not make any impact on the accumulated CO2 in the atmosphere.

And s is more maybe local or even individual the um, public goods and public behaviors, more, more social, cultural. Is involved and G is more micro aspects one company and company level behavior. So suppose one. is developing scores of ESG score, I would be worried how you aggregate, how you can aggregate E score, S score, and G score.

I would like to see E, S, and G separately. And that's my economist's orientation of looking at the, what's the real problem we want to solve.

[00:40:07] Chris Battaglia: Again, we really appreciate your, your deep views on that. And I should say that both yourself and Keiko Honda san will be at the Global Fiduciary Symposium in Tokyo, November 11th, 12th, and 13th, of this year.

And we're offering our delegates, hopefully you know this already, a book signing opportunity. So we're purchasing many of your books. On your behalf and on Honda sans behalf, so you can meet our guest and sign the books at this symposium. So we look forward to that. Having said that 1 final question before I let you go on this really fascinating podcast.

Between now, the end of August and November 11th, where we kick off the global fiduciary symposium in Tokyo, a lot will happen. There'll be a U. S. election. There'll probably be a Fed announcement in the U. S. Maybe some more monetary policy changes in Japan between now and then what what type of forecast might you have on on where Japan will be?

[00:41:04] Professor Ito: New prime minister in Japan.

[00:41:06] Chris Battaglia: yes, Also, Kishida San will be moving on as well. So what, what are your thoughts on how these, changes both politically monetary policy, how will they shape things over the next couple of months? And then looking into 2025,

[00:41:19] Professor Ito: as I mentioned in the beginning that monetary policy directions in the U.

S. and Japan are clear and as long as the data are on track Japan will raise policy rate and U. S. Will lower the policy rate. So the, interest rate differential between the two countries will Narrow I'm almost certain and question is when now the political political developments.

I cannot forecast at all. So I think whether, you know, Trump will be elected or Harris will be elected. I have no crystal ball to tell and in Japanese competition for prime minister. I think we now have the candidates names and it's a leadership competition within the LDP.

And my prediction is that once they select the leader. They will go for the general election and I think it is widely predicted that if they hold the general election in this fall that LDP will win. And the new party leader will become prime minister. And that far I can predict. And so the difference is within the LDP on the security issues.

And the, policies toward defense budget and also the subsidies for the families with children. and there are slight differences among candidates about the. policy stance towards fiscal whether go for the fiscal consolidation or not there are slight differences.

So we will see when prime minister is elected, but I'd say the policy uncertainties in Japan is much, much smaller than the United States. So you can count on Japan to be going forward as it has been, and I think the um, stability will be appreciated in Japan.

[00:43:43] Chris Battaglia: So it sounds like you believe that the markets have already anticipated a lot of this, which I, think most would probably say. However, we also know that there usually are some surprises along the way. So it'll be really interesting to speak with you again, in just a few short months in Tokyo to see how things have changed and to sort of, you know, reassess what's happened.

And also very importantly to look towards the future. Professor Ito, thank you so much. Arigato gozaimashita for your time and for your thoughts. And we look forward to seeing you shortly in Tokyo this year. Thank you very much.

Thank you for your excellent questions. And I'm looking forward to meeting you in person in Tokyo.

See you there. Thank you.